I don't know how straight people can even think that Gay people have CHOSEN to be gay, because (as they say themselves) no one in their right mind would choose to be ridiculed and hurt like they are during their lifetime "out of the closet." They are intelligent people and they know that its hard to be openly Gay or to choose to live their life that way. But for them to be open about it is more freeing than to keep it to them self and live a lie. In history there have been many Gay people that have commited suicide because they either had to keep it to them self or because once they were open about it people were hateful toward them. Some have even been beaten to death because the "came out of the closet." Do you think this makes it appealing to people to "decide" to be Gay? Doesn't make sense to me.
I also don't know why conservative Christians are so concerned about keeping Gay people from getting married, even if they do think its a sin. Why don't we keep saved people from marrying someone that isn't saved? Do we stop young teens from getting married or abusive people from marrying? Why get involved in this area? I know the ads supporting Prop 8 in California are saying that if we don't stop it we will have to support Gay marriage even if we disagree on moral grounds and that children will be taught in school that its okay for two people of the same sex to be married. First of all why would you "have to support" it after it was legal? You can still complain and waive around your anti-gay signs. How is legalizing it going to change your opinion and support? You don't have to go to a Gay wedding, your church doesn't have to hold Gay weddings, its still America. You will still have the freedom of speech (no matter how wrong I think it is to tell Gay people they are going to Hell just based on the fact that they are Gay.) And secondly, perhaps if we took the "taboo" out of same-sex marriage then kids wouldn't think its a big deal. Then you wouldn't have to worry about them being Gay just to be cool or different (as if it was "cool" to put yourself out there as a Gay person and be ridiculed and tormented all your life). And its always been up to each family to be the moral compass for their children. Its not up to the school to teach your kids what is morally right according to the Bible, that's the parent's job. We live in a secular world, Jesus told us we would be persecuted and misunderstood by the world. We can't expect them to act like Christians if they aren't (and again, I am just saying this as an argument... I don't think that same-sex marriages would be immoral myself, and I plan on doing more research into that view based on Biblical principles). I can't expect my non-Christian friends to stop sleeping around and to think its wrong to have sex before they are married if they aren't saved. You are putting the cart before the horse, don't you think? Salvation and repentance first, then behavior changes come in due time after that. It takes time for a new Christian to start to conform to the teachings of the Bible when they are not familiar with it. It takes love and patience and prayer and the working of the Holy Spirit to change people in miraculous ways. A person without the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them cannot be expected to behave like a Christian.
Here are some other examples of things that are legal that the church doesn't support. Drinking, we all agree that being drunk is a sin, yet drinking is legal. And its a good thing too because we know what happened in the 20's during Prohibition. People drank illegally anyways and it actually made it worse because it was taboo and secretive. People are drawn to that sometimes. And I don't think Roe v. Wade needs to be overturned due to the fact that when it was illegal to get an abortion women did "back alley" abortions anyway and some died or were permanently scarred and unable to have children again because of unsafe practices. I would rather it be legal and someone not die over it and we as Christians reach out to women considering abortion and show them other options (in a loving, kind, non-judgemental manner), such as adoption. And to be there for women who end up regretting their decision. America is the land of freedom of choice and freedom of speech. While as Christians we are happy to be able to worship God freely and believe what we believe I think that we need to be more worried about equal rights in our constitution, just as we want the right to worship God as we see fit. People see the church blocking Gay marriage the same as if we were racist. I think I would rather see Gay marriage allowed and people to view the church as anything but racist or homophobic, and each church can then individually choose to support Gays in their congregation or to run them out. (I would HOPE that we wouldn't run them out... that is my goal by talking about this subject openly.) I don't think things are going to be as bad as the ads are making it out to be. I think Christians may be surprised how things may turn out if same-sex marriage is allowed.
I personally don't think that talking about same-sex marriage or any sex education topic should be taught in school before a child is 12 or 13, around the time of puberty. And I will tell my congressman and Govenor that I don't want that to be allowed when necessary, and you can be active in that way too. If my child wants to know about sex or same-sex marriages before they are 12 I would like to be the one to inform them. If they get the education in school after that then that's okay, as long as they know where I stand on the topics. Plus I think it should be mandatory for kids to get their parent's permission to watch any sex-ed videos etc., like in my day. But by the time your child is in high school I would only hope that they have already had the "birds and the bees" discussion with you. And if they are told that same-sex marriage is okay, well if its legal then it is technically okay. But you can explain to your child why you don't think its morally okay (even if I don't share that view I know its your right to have that view and tell your child what you think.) Eventually we all grow up and make up our own minds anyway.
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3 months ago
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this well made video explains very well the logic behind the prop 8 campaign based on the history of same sex marriage in this country. if you can't understand the justification behind people's opinions, perhaps you should ask them before you form your opinion about them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-GjWY-WlA
If you dont want to "affirm and embrace" a gay couple's lifestyle then I CAN understand and see the point of the video and voting "YES" on prop 8. But I don't have a problem with it at this time. I just can't see voting againse it. Thanks for letting me know your opinion. That is why I let people leave comments on my blog postings.
I am just stating my opinion, and you have the right to yours, obviously. So there we go... you vote how your conscience guides you and I'll vote how mine guides me. I don't see a problem with gay people raising kids or with children knowing there are gay people in the world and being told a simple story about it that would hopefully open up conversation within my own household about it. I have gay firends with partners and with kids and my daughter will be raised with them in her life. So I don't think she will be shocked when she is read a story about two kings getting married. She will know about those types of relationships already. I'm not freaked out about it.
As far as section 297.5, the men I know who are in a partnership have gone to great lengths going through legal paperwork with lawyers to protect their assets together and to have rights to make decisions for each other in an emergency etc. Its not that easy for them to gain equal rights as it is for me and my husband, and protect their partnership like a marriage would.
The only thing the video referred to but didn't answer for me is if a church would be forced to perform a same-sex marriage or not. And according to one of my gay friends (that I talked to about this with) they wouldn't want a non-tolerant or non-accepting church to perform their ceremony anyways, they would be going to other churches that support gay marriage or to the courts for their ceremony. Which makes sense to me. Why would they force a pastor to perform their ceremony? So I think that is not something to be feared either.
FYI, in the state of California, schools are required to notify parents of all sex-ed topics at the beginning of the school year, unlike in Massachusetts. Also, unlike Massachusetts, California gives parents the ABSOLUTE right to opt their children out of any sex-ed that conflicts with their beliefs. To learn more about this law, read about this code at the official California Legislative Information website:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=edc&group=51001-52000&file=51937-51939
The ads that suggest that children in California will be forced to learn about same-sex marriage, and that parents have no right to opt-out are FALSE and misleading. Please spread the word. (This is in response to the video link posted above, as well as many other ads that have made this misleading suggestion.)
The link didn't post... Well, FYI, you can find the law under EDUCATION CODE SECTION 51937-51939 on the http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/ website.
Thank you for that wonderful piece of information! I was able to find the page you mentioned.
I particularly like this part of the Education Code Scetion 51937 "The Legislature recognizes that while parents and guardians
overwhelmingly support medically accurate, comprehensive sex
education, parents and guardians have the ultimate responsibility for imparting values regarding human sexuality to their children."
So you see?... There is nothing to worry about. You have control over and the responsibility for imparting your values to your children regarding human sexuality.
Yes, but we're not talking about just sex-ed here. We're talking about what marriage is. If Prop 8 fails, children will be taught what marriage in the state of California is; and that will be heterosexual or homosexual.
Parents have the option to take their children out of sex-ed, but not out of social discussions that discuss the definition of marriage. And that, whether you agree with it or not, is something that some parents would prefer not be taught in the classroom.
If Prop 8 fails there WILL be discussions in schools that about gay marriage being equal to heterosexual marriage. And, if California follows their own laws, parents will NOT have the right to "opt out" of all the discussions that will be lawful and necessary to have in classes.
Yes on Prop 8 is a vote for parents' rights to teach their children what they want to teach their children on significant moral issues.
Since when has the topic of marriage and its definition been something they teach in schools? I see your point, but I just don't agree. So at this time lets just agree to disagree. Your arguments aren't changing my mind. But I pray that God's will be done in this and that Prop 8 passes or fails based on His will despite our ignorance on either side of what will happen if it passes or doesn't pass.
Pray with me everyone: God only you truly know the effect of this Propostion 8 and if it passes or fails. Only you know the truth and the future of the state of California and the conditon of the United States if this Prop 8 passes or fails. Please, allow your will be done, not mine, not my neighbors, not my Gay and Lesbian friends, not my Pastor not the Politicians but YOUR will Father, your Good and Perfect will be done. Amen!
Vote YES on prop 8!
Proposition 8 doesn't say anything about being against the union of homosexuals, it is about the definition of a word. All it is trying to do is to define the word "marriage" as between a man and a woman. That is what the word has always been used for, and Prop 8 is just defining marriage as between a man and a woman. Homosexual couples are obviously different from heterosexual couples, so I don't understand why they're seeking the same stamp as heterosexual couples..."marriage" is between a man and a woman...the actual segment only defines it as that, it doesn't say anything against homosexual union.
To the person prior to me... Many who are going to vote yes on prop 8ARE doing so because they DON'T believe that the union of homosexuals is moral. For many it is taking a moral stand against it. For others, like you perhaps not. But if you ask a homosexual person what its about it is about equal rights. It seems to me that it means a lot of different things to different people. Take the stand that seems right to you, but I still see it as an issue of equal rights between people that want to be married and have the rights of people that are married, even if they are of the same-sex. That IS a big deal to some people, even if not to you.
I just want to thank you for your truly Christian (in all the very best senses)postings and your willingness to separate your own personal beliefs from the rights of others. There are always people who will disagree with one another, but to see such respectful response from you is very heartening to me.
I have been married for 6 years now, and one of the arguments for banning gay unions that I hear frequently is that it will "weaken the institution of marriage". I am not sure how two consenting adults making a lifelong commitment to one another is a bad thing, or frankly, how it even impacts my marriage at all!
Regarding religious ceremonies, I see no way that a church could be forced to perform marriage ceremonies if it is in conflict with their doctrine. Churches can even refuse to perform a ceremony for a heterosexual couple if they so choose. Marriage licenses are issued by the state, and clergy have been authorized by the state (and the requirements vary by state) to sign them. They are not obligated to perform anyone's ceremony.
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