I was just on-line reading what someone, who claims to be a Christian, said on a group site that supports Gay equal rights. It wasn't very nice. It makes me sick to my stomach that people write hateful things and say hateful things to Gay people in the name of Christianity/ God. I know that I should not be ashamed to call myself a Christian, but its people like that that makes me want to disassociate myself from that label. I don't mind being associated with Jesus Christ and being labeled a follower of his, but that is not what that label seems to mean anymore. Its sad.
If Jesus walked the earth today he would be hanging out with the gays and lesbians and shocking the rest of the pious Christians out there. He wouldn't be slamming Gays and causing them emotional (or even physical) pain, he would be their friend and show them love and want them to have salvation to be in Heaven with him some day. It makes me sad... just sad.
I want to take the opportunity to quote some words from a website: Being A Gay Christian. What does the Bible really say?
http://www.agallia.co.za/Afrikaans/A_being_a_gay_christian.htm#Introduction
Many gay woman and men spend most of their lives trying, with no success, to persuade God to change them. It is like trying to get God to change your eye color. We are taught from the Bible that when God gives us victory over any affliction, sin or trial, His victory is complete and full. Many gay woman and men who have been persuaded by ‘healing the gay” ministries that God heals them, however, they never totally obtain victory over their homosexuality. All of these people will tell of their life-long battle against it. Is this then the perfect Victory that the Bible teaches?As I was telling a friend of mine, that is really what is all boils down to for me... after all the arguments are made about the interpretation of the scripture, definitions of certain words, the context of the culture it was written in, what Jesus said or didn't say... the church is discounting 10% (or perhaps more) of the population. These people are being excluded from Churches and fellowship with Christians. And out of those 10% some may be saved but most probably aren't, and who is going to tell them that God actually does love them and wants them to be saved and that salvation is for them? Even if they are gay and can't change it and have prayed for God to change them and aren't changed. Even Paul had a thorn in his side that God would not take away. What if for some people being gay is their thorn to bear? (just for arguments sake) I don't know why God would allow people to remain gay or why some people may be born that way (if it is actually a gene that causes people to be gay/ which some argue is a fact and others don't accept)... but the fact is that they do exist and most will not be able to change. And someone needs to bring them into the fold and accept them into the family of God as brothers and sisters in Christ, and show them love.
What option then is left to these persons? They have been told that they can’t be gay and be Christians; and since all efforts have failed in their struggle not to be gay, then their only recourse, according to the Church, is that they can’t be Christian. So the Church has discounted or discarded as much as 10% of the population.
If they are excluded from the life of the Christian community, who then will tell them of God’s inclusive love and of Jesus’ reconciling death? Are they left to assume that God is so narrow-minded as to exclude them for something over which they have no control and for a choice they did not make? When will the Church finally be brave enough to say with Paul, “in Christ there is neither Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female,” gay or straight. God has enough love for all.
That is my heart, and perhaps my call into ministry. And I cannot answer the question who is gay from choice and who is gay through genetics or who is gay due to circumstance (after all, I am not gay myself and cannot assume to even understand what it feels like to be gay and struggle with that... I can only be empathetic). Only the person who is gay may be able to give insight into those questions of "how" they came to be gay. But I can answer the question on how we should treat them, and its not to shove them away and to scare them away by calling them an "abomination", that is horrible! The person is not an abomination, but that is what they are hearing from most Christians they meet. It just saddens my heart and makes me want to reach out to them and show them that God loves them. IF they are to change their behavior or renounce being gay then I believe that would come AFTER they are saved and have the Holy Spirit living inside them. But I have met plenty of gay Christians who are not feeling led out of homosexuality but feel that they have been accepted by God and are made to be who they are by God and that they are not going to be able to change who they are because if they could have decided not to be gay anymore they would have done so a long time ago.
Perhaps some of you only have met one person that you believe has chosen to be gay or a lesbian and that has chosen to reject God, or haven't actually met a gay person. But if you met more gay people that are saved/ claim to be Christians and who have decided that God loves them the way they are, and were created that way, then you would have less of a problem with the idea of a Christian gay person who is either in a monogamous relationship or has decided to be celibate but will never "stop being gay", as far as who they are attracted to. It actually doesn't seem strange to me when I am around those people. I think they are normal and wonderful and loving people. And if its possible for them to be saved and be gay I think that others who aren't saved, and are rejecting Christianity and God because they are gay, should be told that its possible and not to be afraid to approach God as a gay person and accept salvation, because it is there for them too. And the church in general needs to stop being so homophobic, I mean really that is what I think most of them are. They don't even know a gay person and they are afraid of them and what they might do to their children. I have no fear that my gay friends are going to "influence" or "change" my daughter to be a lesbian, but I hope by knowing them that she is not afraid to be a gay person's friend and is loving towards them, that she sees them just as people... not gay or straight.
7 comments:
hi,
i believe u knw dat we are called Christians bcz we are followers of Christ. Christian is not a label, and all the more we who are saved should not believe that it is a label. Any one who does not follow what Jesus taught or what the bible is a non-Christian, no matter how "devote" they are in attending churches.
Many Christians don't know how to express their opinions. This comes as a HUGE blow to the rest of us Christians who read the post and kept our mouth shut. =)..
I know exactly how u feel. I feel sad and ashamed sometimes too.
But we should know, that same-sex relationships are indeed an abomination to God. The people aren't exactly an abomination UNLESS they are conscious of what they are doing. Paul warned us a few times about gay and lesbian relationships. in Romans 1 itself and 1 Tim 1 as well.
God created us with free will. He may say the things close to His heart, He may pour out His spirit. but at the end of the day, it is our choice. Just like the african lady said, no one can take away your freedom of choice.
But we should not follow the standards of the world regarding our choices. Sure, we should not turn away or look disgusted when we see gay people. All the more we should befriend them and all the more we should share with them God's word.
I have one or 2 friends who are not really sure of their sexual orientation. And they REALLY suffer. they might like someone of the same sex and that person will avoid them. It pains me to see my friends, mere high school students hurt and heart broken.
I try to share what is right with them. Some listen, some say i have lost my marbles. but itz the right thing to do, isnt it?
of course Jesus said we should not judge. But there are distinct things in the bible. When Jesus called the pharisees and the "religious" leaders fake. and even when Jesus said that God opposed the proud. correct?
There are things that are black and white. and the bible as our guide, there are things that are made sure and confirmed thru the Word.
im actually rather sad, that you sad you are ashamed of those Christians, but you would not view a person of their sexuality. No offence, but when Peter cut off the ear of the guard, Jesus did the atmost surprising thing. He put it back.
No matter how rough we may be, how loud mouthed, WE are a family in Christ. and sometimes, our opinions, show where our loyalty lies.
I have no problems being friends with gay or lesbian people. But when they declare their sexual orientation..i cant ignore it. it becomes one of those black and white. I dun lose that friendship, but there is a certain feeling. Things are different. All the more i rmb that Christians should be IN the world not OF the world.
There is only one solution. Prayer. As James said, the prayer of a righteous person has much power in it.
Anywayz, itz just a lil feedback from a teen Christian.
Regards,
MarcusDS
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I respect where you are coming from and my high school version of myself would have agreed with you whole heartedly. I don't know if its that I have matured or that I have gone soft or what, I just don't think that the scriptures really address the idea of a monogamous, loving gay couple or a person that is gay and chooses to live a life of celibacy.
The Bible definately calls the homosexual ACT an abomination in the context of idolatry... but as you said the PEOPLE aren't an abomination, and I would add that being gay doesn't make a person an abomination either. Sexual oriantation in itself is not an abomination. Acting in a way that is blatently against God by worshipping idols and participating in pagan sex acts is definately wrong. But there are plenty of Gay Christian people who believe in God and are not participating in any kind of idol worship or pagan orgies. I just think there is more to it than what is written in black in white in the Bible. Not that I don't agree with the Bible and use it for correction and encouragement etc, as we should. But I guess I just no longer see the gay issue like I use to. And I understand see things from the perspective you have, because I use to have that too.
I don't know if I am explaining myself very well. But I am glad that we are starting a conversation and hopefully can continue to do so in a respectful manner.
And I don't see "Christian" as a label, but the secular world... I think... would use it as such. And its our job to show people what it actually means to be a Christian and explain that "religious" and "Christian" are not synonmymous with each other and explain how salvation and belief in Christ is what makes a person a Christian. Not the church you go to, or the family you grew up in or etc, as some people think.
Anyways... just food for thought.
i understand what you mean.
What i know is this. My dad told me,like i said in the 1st place. It all depends on our choice.
God is good. He gave us freedom. He doesnt order us what clothes to wear, what food to eat.If He des, life would be very very dull. But there has to be a line some where dont there?
I believe this with all my heart.
You can't be gay and christian at the same time. If i know something is an abomination to God, and i say i love God, no matter what the circumstances, i would not do it.
I have seen gay people become christians and become straight. and they have sweared that they will never be straight. But they do, because they know it hurts the heart of the Father when He sees His creations doing what He gave as a gift to be shared between A man and A woman among the same-sex.
There is a distinct difference. Jesus did not come to judge. That was the advantage of the people of Jesus' time. But we wont b let off that slim. When Jesus comes, we know He comes to judge. And He will drag my every sin out of the darkness.
I just want to say this. Im a very sentimental person. I don't date, i don't go looking for girlfriends. When i make a friend, i put stuff on the table, and i expect to bring stuff on the table too. Get me? So i don't like someone very often. And if i do, i will NEVER have impure thoughts about that person.
I used to like this girl. I liked her for 3 years. She knew that. And i had told her i won't date, so i'll wait till i do and then "tackle" her. However, i always knew that a relationship with a "canaanite" was wrong. I should not date a non-Christian girl. I m free to like her. I CAN date her, but i did not, because i know God said to the Israelites not to be associated in a boy-girl relationship with a non-Christian. Get me?
And this wasnt any ordinary "like" or crush.This was serious. I don't get puppy loves. That im sure off.
It became so bad, i almost went against my principles.
However, last year, at a Christian Conference, i felt the Lord impress upon me to let go. And i said, if it is something that burdens me, and i know that God doesnt agree with it, i MUST let it go. And i did.
And i found out, that as fast as you can love someone, you can UNlove someone under the right circumstances. I believe for the sacrifice that i gave, that i chose not to live by the standards of the world will be rewarded in heaven.
It applies to gay people as well. Aren't we required to sacrifice certain things for the Glory of God. I believe for every person who was gay and turned straight so that their actions would not hurt the Father, their reward will be great.
Why arent the Christians today talking about sin anymore?about the Father's heart? Why arent we careful with our deeds?Why arent we holding firm to our principles and traditions as Paul told us in 2 Thess.
I feel if it applies to one Christian, it applies to all, in all deeds.
=)
Regards,
MarcusDS
"You can't be gay and Chrsitan at the same time"??? I don't agree. I believe to be Gay is the same as to be straight, meaning its genetics not decision that makes one straight or homosexual. Just because one claims to be gay/ homosexual, verusus the opposite straight/ heterosexual, doesn't mean they are participating in godless acts. You must seperate the sexual act fromt the person first.
I conceed the point to people that there are people who have turned to homosexual activities by choice and are not genetically born gay. Even most websites I read will acknowledge that some people have become confused about their sexuality after abuse or rape situations. I agree that those people need counseling and to repent of their behavior and be restored unto God. I conceed that point but add another. Some people are born gay (this does not mean, again, that they are having sex... but they feel attracted to the same sex.) These people weren't raised to be gay, did not have an unfortunate event happen in their life to make them sexually confused or been tempted into homosexual acts by outside influences. Many were in fact told by their parents and their church that to be gay is an abomination... just like you have been raised and been told. But then as they mature and start to try to date etc. they realize they just aren't attracted to the opposite sex, no matter how much they want to be. Just as you are drawn to girls some find themselveds drawn to the same gender. These people aren't sinners (well, we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God)... what I mean is they haven't chosen to participate in homosexual acts nor do they want to be anything but a good Christian and to obey their parents and to marry someone of the opposite sex and be done with it. If you met them you would see they are normal, loving people, nothing satanic or evil about them. So take, for one moment if you will, the sex act out of the picture and just look at the person. They are gay, not having sex (like you are straight and not having sex, like a good un-married Christian teenager shouldn't)... are they not able to be a Christian? Didn't Chrsit die so that ALL could come to him?
In the words of the Apostle Paul:
Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
In the words of Jesus himself:
John 3:16 "For God so loved the WORLD (that is everyone) that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOOEVER (that is everyone again) believes in Him SHALL NOT PERISH but have ETERNAL LIFE." vs. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved throught Him." Vs. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged: he who does not believe has been judged already. Because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." vs. 19 "This is the judgement, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil." Vs. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." vs. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
It is possible for people to come to God, believe in Jesus, and to leave behind them their evil deeds. It is the Holy Spirit that dwells within their hearts at that point that will make it clear to them what they need to be rid of. Some people you know may have been led to leave the homosexual lifestyle because they were being led astray by Satan to think that such activity was okay. But there are also Gay people that being attracted to the same sex is not something that will leave them. They will never "become straight" or atttracted to the opposite sex. Here is where I will conclude my argument for now... its getting long and I can start a new blog entry at this point. Just open your mind for a second and realize you CAN be Gay and a Chrsitan. In fact there are Gay people that are celibate because they feel convicted by God's word that they should not engage in homosexual activity. They are GAY and CHRISTIAN and NOT HAVING SEX. That should at least be okay in your mind. Is it not?
http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/1997/novdec/7w6046.html?start=1
This is something for you to read.
I realize that no matter what you say,or no matter what i say will change either ones mind.
I do not see gay ppl as the enemy. I see gay ppl as wounded souls.
However, i commend those who choose to celibate because they know that God doesnt accept gay relationships. But what about the rest of them who claim to know the heart of the Father and yet still maintain their gay or lesbian relationship?
There will always be a black and white. like i said, true, Jesus did not come to judge the world. that was the advantage of the jews at the time. But He is coming back again.
Im sorry, but i cannot "open" my mind and accept gay relationships. But that doesnt mean i will avoid a gay person. That doesnt mean i wont let my future children be friends with a gay person.
It applies. If there are physical laws to obey,then there are spiritual laws to obey.
And if the spiritual laws are directed to a certain aspect in a Christian's life, then it applies to ALL Christians.
It was nice chatting with you. Whatever our opinions maybe, let us continue to pray that gay people will see the Light, and know the Truth.
Regards,
MarcusDS
Marcus,
I wasn't asking you to open your mind to accept gay relationships. I was asking you to open your mind and realize being gay and the sex act isn't the same thing. I wanted you to realize that they are people who are capable of coming to Christ and accepting salvation.
In the story you sent me the mother writes, "... Tim seems resigned to being homosexual, but he gives clues that he's not a practicing homosexual. It's a fine line of distinction, perhaps even a rationalization. Only God knows the heart (1 Kings 8:39)." It may be a fine line, but an important distinction between "being homosexual" and "practicing homosexual behavior."
I think on this point we can agree. If a person is gay or lesbian, but not having homosexual relations with anyone then they should be able to receive Christ as their savior and be supported by the Christian community and the church with ease.
And I agree with you when you stated, "And if the spiritual laws are directed to a certain aspect in a Christian's life, then it applies to ALL Christians." And I think that is how we should apply the scripture to gay people, as it applies to us it applies to them. If it is a sin for you and I, as straight people, to participate in the sex act outside of marriage then it is definately wrong for a gay person to participate in sexual activities outside of marriage.
At this point I need to look into the scriptures to see if God would in fact bless same-sex unions or not... I am not convinced He wouldn't, but I have more to look into and reading and praying to do on that one. But whatever the outcome of my research on that turns out I am happy for now if Christians, like you and me, will at least be friends with the gay people we meet, and lift them up in prayer and be sensitive to the difficulty they face when dealing with their sexual orientation. And I know that the Holy Spirit will change them if they need changing or are capable of change. (I still think that some will not be able to change their attraction to the same sex to an attraction to the opposite sex, but perhaps choose to be celibate to please God. And others will struggle their entire lifetime to do something like that and find it difficult to leave their partner, but who are willing to leave the sex act out of the equation, I have spoken to a couple gay men that feel that way about their relationships.)
Well, I hope that God will lead us both to be kind to all people, no matter what race or sexual orientation or otherwise and that we will both strive to bring our gay friends to the point of salvation and encourage them to lead the life that God calls all Christians to live (even if we differ slightly on what that last part is for homosexuals, I am happy to leave it to God to lead them on the right path). Amen.
I followed your thread on one of the Facebook groups out of curiosity. I appreciate your thoughtful consideration of what it is to be gay and Christian.
Perhaps I am as bad at being gay as I am at being Christian because whenever I hear someone try erroneously to describe my life, I think, "Wait a minute--that's not me!" And that applies to being gay as well as to being Christian.
I am a lesbian and the daughter of a UCC minister. I was brought up in the Christian church and never once did I hear that who I am was wrong in the eyes of God. Would it have made a difference if I had heard that? Would I have felt such shame that I would have "willed" myself to be straight? Who knows...
I am not a Bible scholar, do not wish to be one, but I believe that I understand well the essence of the teachings of Jesus. I am always baffled by the implication that non-Christians or those demonized by the church are somehow virtual sociopaths until we find the Bible and the grace of God.
My relationship with God is through prayer. Though I do attend a UCC church for the fellowship aspect, I find my greatest connection in blotting out the voices of those who would try to interrupt that connection by declaring me unfit to have such a relationship.
You mentioned something about being gay as having a thorn in one's side. I would challenge those who believe that being gay is wrong to think of it this way: What if gay people exist as a challenge to YOU to see if you will do what Jesus would have done? Can you step past your perception that we are dirty or diseased and come sit with us on OUR terms?
I, for one, am weary of so much focus on my life and whether I am worthy of the love of God. It keeps me from focusing on the greater needs of the world and the call from Jesus to spread love, not hate and fear.
Thank you again for the courage to step forward with your thoughts. Yours is a great ministry....
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